Path: paganini.bofh.team!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!news.mixmin.net!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "Nightbulb.net" Newsgroups: alt.bible Subject: Re: The Witchtower Society Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 21:19:46 -0500 Organization: Mixmin Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 02:16:49 -0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: news.mixmin.net; posting-host="60254e3f23fca6a14f610385b9cd8004a58fa513"; logging-data="2558662"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@mixmin.net" Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: Xref: paganini.bofh.team alt.bible:650936 On 7/21/22 02:50, Robert wrote: > On Jul 20, 2022, Nightbulb.net wrote > (in article ): > >> On 7/19/22 22:04, Robert wrote: >>> Which renders your thoughts about God being in all men so that they can look >>> inside yo see him as total error. >>> >>> You are a false teacher. > Nightbulb.net > > Message-ID: >> >> 1. You are a false accuser. > ***************************************************** > Oh really? Then you are unregenerate! The scripture repeately speaks of God, > the Sprit, and Christ dwelling within man, and of looking inward to the mind > where Christ dwells: > > (John 14:16-17) "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another > Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; "Even the Spirit of truth; > whom the world cannot receive, _because it seeth him not_, neither knoweth > him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be _in you_." > > Jesus says that God shall be inside us. Robert says it is impossible to find > God and his will by looking inside ourselves. Robert cannot receive this > spirit because Robert 'seeth him not.' > **************************************************** > You followed the trend of MM who claims that no man goes to hell, that God is > within man. No I didn't. That's your imagination speaking. All men go to hell. Even Jesus descended into Hell with mankind. Where do you think you are now? Heaven? > Then you sit in personal judgment of me. And as I have told you numerous > times you do not know me or who I am. > > You also make no reference to the difference of men being born of God, and > the Gentile. Absence of evidence is evidence of nothing. Just because I didn't say something you expect to be said, proves nothing. > >> 2. I do not claim to be a teacher. I am just a man having a discussion. > > You accuse, and falsely, you use scripture that you do not understand, as if > you did, for what purpose? You're the accuser here. Not me. You're the one condemning, damning, and pronouncing brands and anathemas. >> >> 3. It is you who pretends to be a teacher. I am debunking your teaching. >> I debunk the lie that the church ever had the oracles of God, because >> the church is a den of iniquity, and it is the Greco-Roman solar cult of >> Apollo and Hades. > > What have I to do with any of that? The assembly had the oracles of God and > published them well. You in fact are commanded to assemble with them. Hey > 10:25 >> >> 4. I have been repeatedly telling you and people like you to stop >> pretending to teach because you got it wrong and you are sowing >> confusion. The church and its traditions are anti-christ. > > Who is like me? You do not know me, yet you sit before me as an accuser of > the brethren. The people in the Church are not the brethren. They are the many on the broad road to destruction. They are the deceived following the God of this world, the Papacy. > You, like some others here are sowing lies, and bearing false witness against > me. > I have to laugh at your accusations. They are baseless with regard to me. > >> >> 5. You ignored the fact that you spoke directly contrary to the >> scripture you pretend to teach. > > When and where? >> >> 6. I did not say that God is in all men. I said he is in those who are >> regenerated under the new covenant, and I gave many scriptures that say >> exactly this. You ignored all that scripture and went on with your high >> and holy church teaching trying to explain why the bible is false and >> Robert's church dogma is the real truth and anyone who disagrees with >> Robert's ideas is a false teacher. > > You never said that, and what you did say you said with full agreement with > MM, and I quoted your statements at the beginning of this post and the > message ID of yours from which it was taken. Now we can know for sure you are deeply confused. I quoted scripture where Jesus promised to send the comforter to dwell with men, and where Paul and other Apostles told the converted saints that God dwells within them, debunking the false dogma that God is not to be found in men, when God himself promises to take up residence in the hearts and minds of men. Man is God's temple, where he dwells, where the mercy seat and the ark of the covenant rests. Your problem is with this scripture, not with me. I made it crystal clear that those who are regenerated by the Spirit have the spirit dwelling within themselves, and that is where their guidance comes from. The scripture is plain on this. >> >> 7. So you have erected a strawman, then used that strawman to vilify me >> with false accusation. You have put words in my mouth, words that I did >> not say, then accused me based on your imagination. Your strawman is a lie. > > Read my previous sentence again and let it sink in. >> The only thing that is sinking in is your selective use of words out of context to magnify your own confusion. >> >> Robert wrote: >> >>> No man is born with God or the spirit of God inside, All men are born >>> is and of evil. >> >>> There is a god in men, that being the god of this earth, Satan. There >>> is no good in him. Anyone that speaks otherwise is of Satan. >> >> But scripture says the opposite of what Robert wrote: >> >> "And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his >> birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink >> neither wine nor strong drink; and he _shall be filled with the Holy >> Ghost, even from his mother’s womb_ ..." (Luke 1:14-15) >> >> "... the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy >> Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou >> among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb." (Luke 1:41-42) >> >> "... And all they that heard them laid them up in their hearts, saying, >> What manner of child shall this be! And the hand of the Lord was with >> him." (Luke 1) > > “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.” > (Psa 51:5, KJV) > > “Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in > the earth. The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as > they be born, speaking lies.” (Psa 58:2-3, KJV) > > “For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth > not.” (Ecc 7:20, KJV) > > “Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in > the earth. The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as > they be born, speaking lies.” (Psa 58:2-3, KJV) > Are you denying these truths? You are taking one instance or statement out of context, and making a doctrine out of it. I'm not surprised. You attempted to establish a doctrine that God does not dwell inside of men, and I debunked this doctrine. God dwells in everyone who is baptized of the Spirit. The word, 'baptizo' from which we get 'baptize' means: "To soak through completely." This is referring to being filled to the core with water, a dye, or the Spirit. > If Jesus had this type of a body was John the Baptist in a better situation > than Jesus? > > “For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God > sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned > sin in the flesh:” (Rom 8:3, KJV) > > Because you know so little of Judaism, its Covenant with God and God with > them, and the faith they lived by as well as the annual cleansing of Sin for > the nation, but NOT any of the nation's surrounding them. That you Do no > realize the the time of Christs life on this earth was as a Jew under the > Law, and he did not deviate from following the Law, That he taught the Gospel > of the Kingdom that was to come AFTER His resurrection, it does not give you > the right to supersede anything from scripture. Nor to pass judgement while > you have a log in your eye. You have no idea what I do or don't know of Judaism. What, are you a psychic all of the sudden? If Jesus did not deviate from following the law, then why did he: Heal on the sabbath? Have his disciples pick corn on the sabbath? Refuse to submit to the religious authority of the Priests? Dismiss his parents? Whip people in the temple? >> The scripture plainly says that John the Baptist was filled with the >> Spirit even before he was born. John was neither conceived in iniquity >> nor was he indwelt with the devil, as we quote Robert saying. > > Show us what world he was conceived in. Show us what portion of JtB that the > spirit of God filled. Then show us where I stated that he or any man was > indwell of the spirit of satan. I already did. I quoted you. >> Robert side-stepped this with his strawman argument. >> >> It is Robert that pretends to be a teacher, and teaches falsely, then >> ignores his own contradictions when they are exposed. When Robert >> accuses he is speaking of his own, or projecting. > > Ahh, more false witness. No. You are the false witness. We've already established that. You're grasping at straws. >> Robert said plainly that no man is born with the holy Spirit dwelling in >> him. Yet scripture plainly says a man was born with the indwelling of >> the Spirit. > > I was speaking in the same general terms that you were and are. I can point > out other such men of old who were filled with the Spirit of God, and I > mentioned that in another post, to you. That the spirit can be withdrawn at > any time, for those under the Old Covenant. >> >> Robert said that little children are born indwelt with Satan, yet the >> scripture says they are innocent, and their later guilt or innocence is >> predicated on the will of God in manifesting either good or evil as he >> sees fit. > > Another over reaching stretch of your imagination. Flat out bearing false > witness and for what purpose? >> >> The scripture teaches that man is clay in the potter's hand. The church >> tradition teaches that God is man's tool, a genie in a bottle that >> grants wishes if you say the right words. >> >> A man could spend all his waking hours responding to the church's and >> Robert's false accusations, and never clear his desk of them. > > Then prove and verify your accusations regarding me, or be known as a liar. Blah, blah, blah, blah. The Pharisees went about constantly laying traps to try to get Jesus to say something they could use against him. I thank God that in this age he has withdrawn from Christians the power to use the burning stake and the dungeon of tortures. >> "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, >> and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the >> earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice >> saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom >> of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren >> is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." (Rev 12) > > Here you are following suit, accusing the brothers of the Lord. The people in the church are not the brothers of the Lord. They are following another shepherd, the Papacy. >> The dragon that speaks as the lamb is the Christian religion. The >> Christian religion is the accuser of the brethren. It accuses men day >> and night based on its lies and delusions. It denies that the blood of >> Jesus was shed for all men, and instead teaches that Jesus blood only >> covers a few sins approved by the Church religion. > > You throw out the baby with the bath water. You know so very little and you > teach another Gospel. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Generalist blanket statements. Yada, yada, yada. We've already been over the gospel: Jesus took away the sins of the whole world. He will thoroughly purge his threshing floor and beat the sin out of humanity and return all to the Father. The firstfruits will be saved and regenerated first (that was done many centuries ago). The stragglers will receive a long age of whoop-ass (this present age) until they are straightened up by the power of God, not by the power of religion. That's really good news. God is saving man, with or without man's cooperation. It's about what God is doing for and to man, not about what man is doing. Man can do nothing towards his own salvation. Those who are called to cooperate by believing and realizing their need for salvation, get to the head of the line. The church teaches a false gospel, to whit: For god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, so that 99.9% of humanity through all history, who do not believe on him, will be abandoned by this weak and vindictive God, to roast in white-hot agony of flames, for trillions of endless eternities, unless they submit to a rule book, most of which men can't even understand, and almost none of which men can agree upon the meaning of. But if you pay your indulgences, or tithing, and follow the rules that have endless interpretations, you might not roast in the devil's pit. Wow, such good news! And in case you didn't know it, this doctrine is the mythical Hades of the Greek philosophers, the very Hades that Jesus said, "shall not prevail!" If we were keeping score with this insane, fake gospel: Devil: 11 billion Jesus: 144 thousand + a few extra Who is the mightier god in this scenario? The Christian religion teaches that Jehovah is so weak and vindictive that the Devil will outscore him a thousand to one, and that hell will be a thousand times more populous than heaven. This is not only ridiculous, it is a slander against God. If you believe this nonsense, Robert, and if this is your gospel, then think on this: " Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." The Apostle makes it abundantly clear in this passage, and in others, that all men were condemned by one man's sin, and that all men will be saved by one man's righteousness. You were concluded under sin by Adam's disobedience, not by your own. Thus your own obedience can do nothing to save you. But the righteousness of Jesus, whose Father is not Adam, but is God, merits grace upon all. God's grace is to all men, especially (not exclusively) to them that believe. Them that believe go first. The religious who believe religious piety will save them from Adam's sin, go last. It is Adam's sin, and not your own transgressions, that condemns you. Thus it is Jesus' righteousness, and not your own righteousness, that saves you. Ergo, all shall be saved and returned to the Father. For it is written: "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." Paul says it again, that God planned for all men to be concluded in unbelief, so that he would not have to show partiality in condemning some and cursing others. All the nations received God's mercy when the Jews rejected God. And now in the end the Jews will receive mercy on account of the law of equity. Everyone gets saved in the end, Robert. Every man born of Adam will be in the Kingdom of Heaven when this whole movie under the sun finally wraps up. Any other gospel is a false gospel. Gospel means "good news" and that's why it's good news. This is what original Christians believed up through the second century, before Rome had thoroughly conquered the church. They even had a word for it: apocatastasis. "apocatastasis: The doctrine that one day, all free creatures will share in the grace of salvation." (The Century Dictionary) The Greco-Roman whore lied when they taught the doctrine of hellfire. They pronounced anathemas on Origen and any other early saint who taught the doctrines of apocatastasis. The lake of fire in the book of Revelation is a fire of purging, and the word there for "punishment" is "kaleish" which also means "correction, or pruning." The lake of fire and brimstone is a refiner's crucible, and you are in it, getting roasted right now. God is getting himself gold tried in the refiner's fire. You will be made perfect by God's actions and the pressures, trials, sufferings, and revelations that *He* places upon you--not by your own law-keeping. >> Recap: >> >> Robert says no man is born with the Holy Spirit. > > In normal terms, that is correct, just like you were born with a sin nature. >> >> Scripture says John was born full of the Spirit, even from the womb. > > Name others, many others so as to normalize your claims and then try and > refute the scriptures I quoted to you regarding the birth of men. So you wish to frame the discussion according to your rules, then demand me to fight my way out of your framework. Why would I want to do that? The scripture already proved you wrong. You are trying to use philosophical tricks to avoid admitting that you lied. Nobody is born indwelt with Satan. Babies are innocent before God and have done neither good nor evil. Babies are born with a clean slate until God's predestined plan for each one unfolds in adulthood. It took Judas until he was a middle aged man for Satan to enter into him, and we're talking about the betrayer of Jesus, one of the worst of the worst. Not even the traitor of traitors was born indwelt with Satan. I neither claimed nor attempted to "normalize" anything. I just proved that you are full of bull with one example. It was you that did that in your absolute doctrinal claim. Now you are trying to waffle back from your position while putting the onus on me to disprove the actual meaning of your words. This is ridiculous. You said what you said, and I pounced on it, not to prove you wrong (which I did, by the way) but to demonstrate that you are cock-sure about the stability of sand. >> Robert says men are born indwelt with Satan. > > Prove it. You said it. What more proof do I need? I copypasta'd your exact words showing that you said this. You see, Robert, God is not judging your 'biblical deeds.' He is judging your words. The words you speak are the real fruit he is testing--not whether or not you keep the ten commandments or any commandments, because no man has ever kept the commandments except for Jesus. Since no man has ever kept the commandments, there's a different standard. That is the mystery of God's grace that Paul explained in the scriptures above. >> Scripture says men are born into the law of sin by way of Adam, but does >> NOT say they are indwelt with Satan. The traitor Judas is a clear >> example of this: > > Scripture says none of that. Look, a double negative. I said the scripture 'does not say' and you respond, 'scripture says none of that.' So your point is ... ? >> "Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of >> the twelve." >> >> All this time and scripture does not speak of Satan dwelling in anyone >> or of little babies being born indwelt with Satan. Someone had to betray >> Jesus to bring about God's plan, so it was Satan doing the deed. > > Judas was living in OT times, the ministry of Jesus occurred in the 69th week > OF YEARS of DANIEL. >> >> >> Robert says babies are indwelt with Satan. > > Another lie, so prove it. No, you actually said it. Gaslighting me won't get you anywhere. You said it and you can't bully me into questioning reality, gaslighter. >> Scripture says babies are innocent, as yet incapable of fulfilling the >> predestined purposes God has for them. Even the sinful human heart can >> sense and adore the innocence of infants, who have done no evil, nor can >> do any evil in their innocent and helpless state. >> >> Robert says, "Anyone that speaks otherwise is of Satan." > > OTHERWISE as in what? All men have knowledge of Good and Evil, that was > inherited from Adam. *Men* gain knowledge of good and evil. Not babies. Women are saved by *child-bearing*, not by bible-keeping, as every woman has a man as her head and her head is the responsible party. Once again you deflect and distract. >> Scripture speaks otherwise. >> >> I expect Robert to continue with his bile and crank, and avoid >> confessing that he told a lie. He would rather prop up strawman >> sentences that I did not say, then accuse me of saying them, then >> conclude anathemas upon me for what he himself is saying. > > Where is the lie? >> >> We ought to ask Robert, "Which Satan are you referring to?" Is it the >> dragon that speaks as a lamb? The bottomless pit is the Greco-Roman >> Hades. The Church is a Greco-Roman Imperial death cult that rose up out >> of the Greco-Roman pit. The doctrine of the church is the fire that the >> Roman church dragon breathes. The Dragon impersonates (anti-christ) the >> Lamb. Satan deceives men by wearing a Jesus costume. > > Here is where you dove off the deep end. The number of the name of the > Anti-christ is 666 and the angels will proclaim in throughout the heavens > that all men will know. The scripture says the Devil will deceive, "the whole world." He has deceived the whole world with his Jesus costume. The Papacy, the seat of the holy see, is the head of the dragon, the anti-christ, that face of that old serpent pretending to be God with his Papal bulls and nuncios. All the early Christians knew this in Paul's day, having identified Caesar as the continuation of that seat of sin. Martin Luther and the reformers wrote dozens of times that the Pope of Rome is the anti-christ and the devil. When the devil takes over your society, he is always going to tell you that he speaks for God. That's what 'anti-christ' means: 'in place of christ.' > You have joined the ranks of tesla. Ted, and others in these NG's. Ooh, guilt by association, when I don't know who these people are and I have no association with them. Your words are beyond asinine. This childishness has got to stop. > God does not dwell in your mind, God dwells in the spirit of men who have > been Born Again and washed in the Blood of the Lamb. I debunked you on this already, and now you're parroting half of my words as if you were the one who brought up the idea. I'm not going to repeat myself. >> The Greco-Roman fake church system relies upon psychological fear and >> terror to rob men of their money and freedom, to exercise authority over >> them. Thus they train you up from Childhood to "fear the flame" which >> means "obey your masters or burn." Jesus and the Apostles never >> established this nonsense. They established the opposite of what the >> Hades cult promotes: > > You are late to the party, and know so little. You are duplicitous and cunning, but not cunning enough. >> "Upon this rock I will build my ekklesia [not 'church'] and the gates of >> _Hades_ shall not prevail against it." >> >> The rock is the Holy Spirit. Neither the bible nor a priest caste are >> the rock. The rock is God's spirit, and the flock of Jesus is >> established on this foundation, and no other. > > Wrong, that is yet another Gospel and goes against the Gospel of the Kingdom. > > Jesus Christ is the Rock and spoken of as such throughout the OT. Not so fast. Jesus is not speaking of himself as the rock in this scripture. He is speaking of himself as the builder, and the confession of the spirit as the foundation. Jesus Christ is the Father and the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is "a quickening spirit." "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." He is one God with three parts. He that has the Son hath the Father ... He that has the Son has the Spirit ... He that has the Spirit has the Father and the Son. To know one is to know all three. And Jesus answered and said unto him, "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar–jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." The Father revealed the truth to Peter by the Spirit. Jesus did not tell Peter that he is Christ. The Father told Peter this, by the Spirit. Jesus says this is the foundation. >> The gates of hades is the Greco-Roman idea of the gate that imprisons >> the dead in the 'underworld.' Jesus said these gates shall not prevail, >> meaning the dead shall not remain imprisoned in the underworld, but >> shall escape by the work of Jesus. The Roman church cult keeps the dead >> imprisioned behind the gates (church dogma) so they cannot go out of the >> church and be alive in Christ. > > False teachings. Which part of the scripture is false? >> The Roman dragon has many agents that speak like Robert. He likely >> learned his dogmatic ideas from them. Their sole purpose is to sow >> doctrinal confusion and contradiction to undermine belief in the >> scripture. This is achieved by endless and unnecessary debate, >> dissembling, and distraction. The chief goal of the Church is to cause >> men to lose beleif and understanding in scripture so they will instead >> obey Church leadership instead of moving on to be lead of the Spirit. > > The Body of Christ is the Assembly. Robert is not their leader, Jesus is. The church is not the body of Christ. The church is a worldly institution, erected by laws of men, to exercise authority over men. >> They do this by maintaining endless contention and disputation over the >> scripture, so that people don't know what to believe and will have >> difficulty sorting fact from fiction. >> >> To allay such confusion I will spell out the truth: > > First get rid of the Log in your eye. > > You said you were not a teacher, etc. that is pretty obvious in this post, > but you are a wannabe. You really are obstinate. Rebuking false accusers is not promoting oneself as a teacher. -- Nightbulb https://blog.nightbulb.net Flip the night switch.