Path: paganini.bofh.team!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!news.mixmin.net!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "NightBulb.net" Newsgroups: alt.bible Subject: Re: Have you had a Bible baptism? Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2022 14:47:09 -0600 Organization: Mixmin Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2022 20:46:48 -0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: news.mixmin.net; posting-host="ea1b87ba6240939558973ef7bc48a66568507c43"; logging-data="3399435"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@mixmin.net" Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: Xref: paganini.bofh.team alt.bible:653401 On 12/4/22 13:30, zebra2@windstream.net wrote: > On Sun, 4 Dec 2022 08:38:03 -0600, "NightBulb.net" > wrote: > >> On 12/4/22 05:58, zebra2@windstream.net wrote: >>> Have you had a Bible baptism? >>> >>> There is baptism and then there is Bible baptism. >>> If you haven't had a Bible baptism, you haven't really been baptized. >>> There are a few things to consider in a Bible baptism: >>> >>> 1) NEED A LARGE QUANTITY OF WATER >>> >>> For total immersion. So if one hair remains above the water do you need a do-over? >> [...] >> >> Why do you think getting dunked in water is important? > > Because the Bible says to do it that way. You make assumptions. The Bible DOES NOT say 'to do it that way.' What the bible explicitly says, is that a certain person did a water baptism at a particular place and time in a particular way. The Bible was not written to you as a personal letter. You are extrapolating an ancient event as a current rule. Water baptism was a command under the Old Covenant: "But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him." Jesus had to be dunked in water by a Levite Priest to fulfill the Law of Moses. "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Something miraculous happened at the baptism of Jesus. When he came out of the water, the Holy Spirit descended upon him, and witnesses heard God testify that Jesus is His Son. Jesus was baptized for all of us. So when you say, "the Bible says to do it that way" you are merely assuming that because someone else did something, you are bound by some unwritten rule to copy them. But this is not true. >> What happens when you are dunked in the water? > > It is a super quick dunking, not enough time for things to happen. We know what happened when Jesus was dunked in the water. As soon as he rose out of the water heaven opened and testified of Him, by the Father and the Spirit, as two witnesses, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I hope you can follow along and keep these thoughts in your mind as we proceed. I am going to show you what baptism really means. Jesus is showing us by his example what baptism is really about and what it really means. >> >> What happens if you are never dunked in the water? > > You are showing God that you do not approve of His way of baptism. God showed us in Jesus Christ that baptism is not about being dunked in water. Once again, I must point out to you, that baptism in water was a command and ordinance of the Old Covenant, for those under the circumcision, for the time when the temple was still standing. >> What is baptism for, actually? > > See the next one > >> >> What does baptism in water symbolize? > > It shows everyone that you are going to serve God wholeheartedly > through Jesus. No, it shows and proves nothing. It shows you are willing to get wet. It is proof of nothing other than that you are willing to submit to a useless religious ordinance that was under the Old Covenant. Christians were not the only people who baptized in the ancient world. The Christian baptism that would come would be a very different thing, as we shall see. >> Are there 'salvific' properties in the water or the ritual? > > It is a requirement of the Christian faith. (Mt 28:19,20) But it does > not guarantee salvation. Since it does not guarantee salvation, what DOES guarantee salvation? Baptism! But a different kind of baptism, as we shall see. >> If so, what are the properties? > > See above There are no salvific properties in a water dunking and being dunked in water has nothing to do with eternal life, as, I again note, water baptism was an ordinance under the Old Covenant, which was a shadow of things to come. >> Are certain words required for the baptism? > > Not that I know of. But some may think so using Mt 28:19,20. There are specific words required for REAL baptism, not the watery shadow version. We will get to that. >> If so, which words are required, and why? > > See above There are words required. But they are not spoken by man. They are spoken by God, as he is the one who performs the baptism. Moving on ... >> Who has authority to do baptism? > > I would assume any Bible baptized person that is doing well in the > congregation, but I could be wrong. Yes, you are totally wrong. John the Baptist was a Levite priest, the son of Zacharias, a temple priest, having authority as a Levite to baptize in water. And this is what John did on the Jordan. Under the Old Covenant a priest had the authority to baptize: "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." We see here what baptism by water (cloud and sea) symbolized in the Old Covenant. It symbolizes eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus Christ. The real baptism is an internal baptism that washes us from the inside outward, by taking Jesus into ourselves. Jesus told us this: >> How does one get the authority to do a baptism? > > Remain faithful in the true religion. The scripture makes it painfully clear that the authority to baptize is from God to the Levites (priests) under the Old Covenant. It does not come from joining a religion. It was an authority of the priests of Israel. So the Levite John the Baptist was out baptizing: "John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;" And John the Baptizer, who went about dunking men in water, preached that a newer and better kind of baptism was coming: "And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost." The baptism of the Holy Ghost was on its way. This is the New Covenant. Those who enter into the New Covenant do not do so by way of the Old Covenant ritual of water dunking. They enter by fire, and the Holy Ghost. >> How can you prove someone is authorized to baptize? > > The Scriptures at Mt 28:19,20 do not require proof of the baptizer. What you say would be true, if the entire Old Testament didn't exist! One has to be a priest to baptize. There are two kinds of priests: 1. Levitical or Aaronic priest of the Old Covenant; 2. Melchizedek priest of the New Covenant. Only a priest can baptize. And in the priesthood after the Order of Melchizedek there is only one High Priest who baptizes, and his name is Jesus Christ: "I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost." Jesus gave the power to confirm the Holy Ghost on his Apostles and Disciples at the Pentecost: "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers." These are the men he told to preach the gospel to the nations and baptize them in his name. He did not say, "Anyone who reads the bible can just go baptize people." >> What is the source of said authority? > > No proof is needed according to the Bible. As I have shown above that is false. The Levite priesthood baptized with water under the Old Covenant. Jesus Christ baptizes with the Holy Ghost and fire under the New Covenant. >> What does water baptism do for the baptized subject? > > Shows himself and others that he will dedicate his life to serving God > in Jesus' name. It shows that you are still living under the Old Covenant and are rejecting the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the eating of Christ's flesh and drinking of his blood, which is the breaking of bread, having one spiritual drink and one spiritual food. "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." This real and effectual baptism is one that we drink. This is what the last supper symbolizes. By demanding anyone to submit to water baptism you are demanding something that was done away at the end of the old world and Old Covenant. Jesus Christ has already accomplished everything necessary for our salvation. He sent his Apostles and Disciples into the world to testify of this very fact. That is the gospel. That is the good news. By saying your religion requires water baptism you are adding to the work of Jesus Christ and nullifying the witness of his Apostles who testified that Jesus has saved us from our sin. There is only one baptism required of man, and that is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and that baptism if performed by God the Father directly: "No man cometh unto me except my Father draw him." Those of us who receive this baptism receive a priesthood, "without father or mother, without beginning of days or end of years, abiding a priest continually ... after the order of the Son of God ..." Your religion cannot do that. All your religion can do is witness against the finished work of Jesus Christ by adding more works--works that have no power to save. When Jesus cried out on the cross he said: "It is finished." (1 Corinthians 12:13) "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." When a man is truly baptized, the holy spirit descends upon him like a dove, and the Father says, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Those are the words of a real baptism ceremony, and the Father and Son is the ultimate officiator of the ceremony. "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." "To them gave he power to become the sons of God ..." It was finished. It's already done. It's over. You just haven't realized it yet. If you had realized it, you would not be playing at religion in your bible sandbox with water baptism. Jesus Christ presented mankind to the Father and baptized mankind for the remission of sins. That's real baptism. Religion can't do that. If we could be justified by the law (water baptism), then Christ died in vain. You cannot preach the cross and works at the same time. The works of the law make the cross of no effect. We are saved by grace through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast. And the purpose of religion is so that men can boast of their own works of righteousness. Jesus came to save sinners, not the righteous. The modern Church desires to bring men under the works of the Law, and separate them from the free salvation offered by Jesus Christ. -- Nightbulb | https://blog.nightbulb.net | Flip the night switch. If tacky red hats annoy Pharisees I want to buy hats for the whole town.